Zhuangzi translation and commentary

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Table of contents

2:12

瞿鵲子問乎長梧子曰:「吾聞諸夫子,聖人不從事於務,不就利,不違害,不喜求,不緣道,无謂有謂,有謂无謂,而乎塵垢之外。夫子以為孟浪之言,而我以為妙道之行也。吾子以為奚若?」

長梧子曰:「是黃帝之所聽熒也,而丘也何以知之!且女亦大早計,見卵而求時夜,見彈而求鴞炙。予嘗為女妄言之,女以妄聽之,奚?旁日月,挾宇宙,為其脗合,置其滑涽,以隸相尊。眾人役役,聖人愚芚,參萬歲而一純。萬盡然,而以是相蘊。

予惡乎知說生之非惑邪!予惡乎知惡死之非弱喪而不知歸者邪!麗之姬,艾封人之子也。晉國之始得之也,涕泣沾襟;及其至於王所,與王同筐床,食芻豢,而後悔其泣也。予惡乎知夫死者不悔其始之蘄生乎!

夢飲酒者,旦而哭泣;夢哭泣者,旦而田獵。方其夢也,不知其夢也。夢之中又占其夢焉,覺而後知其夢也。且有大覺而後知此其大夢也,而愚者自以為覺,竊竊然知之。君乎,牧乎,固哉!丘也,與女皆夢也;予謂女夢,亦夢也。是其言也,其名為弔詭。萬世之後,而一遇大聖知其解者,是旦暮遇之也。

既使我與若矣,若勝我,我不若勝,若果是也?我果非也邪?我勝若,若不吾勝,我果是也?而果非也邪?其或是也,其或非也邪?其俱是也,其俱非也邪?我與若不能相知也,則人固受其黮闇。吾誰使正之?

使同乎若者正之,既與若同矣,惡能正之!使同乎我者正之,既同乎我矣,惡能正之!使異乎我與若者正之,既異乎我與若矣,惡能正之!使同乎我與若者正之,既同乎我與若矣,惡能正之!然則我與若與人俱不能相知也,而待彼也邪?

何化聲之相待,若其不相待。和之以,因之以曼衍,所以窮年也。忘年忘,振於無竟,故寓諸無竟。謂和之以?曰:是不是,然不然。是若果是也,則是之異乎不是也亦無;然若果然也,則然之異乎不然也亦無。」[a]


Mister Nervous Magpie asked Mister Long Desk, “I heard from my teacher that wise people do not make it their business to worry about things. They do not seek gain or avoid loss, enjoy being sought or follow any way. Saying nothing they say something, saying something they say nothing and wander outside the floating dust. My teacher thought this was wild talk, but I thought it captured the mysterious Way. What do you think about it?” [1]

Mister Long Desk said, “This would make the Yellow Emperor’s ears ring. How could Confucius understand it? But you’re getting ahead of yourself. You see an egg and listen for the rooster’s crow. You see a bow and expect roast owl. I’m going to try saying some crazy things to you, and you listen crazily—how about that? Flank the sun and moon, embrace space and time, and meet like lips, settling in the slippery murk where servants exalt each other. Ordinary people slave away, while the wise are stupid and simple, participating in ten thousand ages and unifying them in complete simplicity. The ten thousand things are as they are, and so are jumbled together. [2]

“How do I know that loving life is not a mistake? How do I know that hating death is not like a lost child forgetting its way home? Li Ji was the daughter of the border guard of Ai. When the duke of Jin got her, her tears soaked her shirt. But once she reached the royal palace, slept in the king’s bed, and ate the meats of his table, then she regretted her tears. How do I know that the dead don’t regret that they ever longed for life? [3]

“One who dreams of drinking wine may weep in the morning. One who dreams of weeping may go for a hunt the next day. In the dream, you don’t know it’s a dream. In the middle of a dream, you may interpret a dream within it. Only after waking do you know it was a dream. Still, there may be an even greater awakening after which you know that this, too, was just a greater dream. But the stupid ones think they are awake and so brightly claim to 'know' it. Are some rulers? Others shepherds? Really?! Confucius and you are both dreaming. My saying you are dreaming is a dream, too. These words might be called a puzzle. But if after ten thousand years we encounter a single wise person who knows the solution, it would be no different from what we encounter every morning and evening.” [4]

Once you and I have started arguing, if you win and I lose, then are you really right and am I really wrong? If I win and you lose, then am I really right and are you really wrong? Is one of us right and the other one wrong? Or are both of us right and both of us wrong? If you and I can’t understand one another, then other people will certainly be even more in the dark. Whom shall we get to set us right? 

Shall we get someone who agrees with you to set us right? But if they already agree with you how can they set us right? Shall we get someone who agrees with me to set us right? But if they already agree with me how can they set us right? Shall we get someone who disagrees with both of us to set us right? But if they already disagree with both of us how can they set us right? Shall we get someone who agrees with both of us to set us right? But if they already agree with both of us how can they set us right? If you and I and they all can’t understand each other, should we wait for someone else? 

Shifting voices waiting on one another may just as well not wait on one another. Harmonize them by means of heaven’s relativity, orient them with the flowing flood, and so live out your years. Forget the years, forget morality, but be stirred by the limitless and so lodge within it. What do I mean by “harmonize them by means of heaven’s relativity”? I mean right is not right, so is not so. If right were really right, it would be so different from not right that there would be no room for argument. If so were really so, then it would be so different from not so that there would be no room for argument.  [5]




[1] This is similar to the conversation in 1:05. There, Shoulder-Self has been listening to Jie Yu, the madman of Chu who lectured Confucius in Analects 18.5. Here, Nervous Magpie has been talking with his teacher, identified as Confucius himself on the strength of the reference in the next paragraph, who shares with him some 孟浪之言 "wild talk." The fact that he describes it as "wild talk" suggests that he does not agree. Is he perhaps relating what he heard from Jie Yu? On the other hand, in the next paragraph Long Desk  offers some 妄言 "crazy talk" of his own, implying that someone can mean something and regard it as deviant at the same time. This ambiguity is consistent with the idea that characters in Zhuangzi, particularly Confucius, do not necessarily stand for fixed positions but represent people learning and changing: what strikes them as wild and crazy at first later becomes their own view. See character development.

The description of wise people here, in particular as 'saying nothing while they say something' and vice versa, strikes me as precisely the ideal of disappearing that we saw Zhuangzi aspiring to in 1:02 and as an apt description of what get described as "goblet words" in 8:11, filling and emptying.

[2] I wonder if "getting ahead of yourself" is like leaving for Yue today and arriving there yesterday or making the made-up mind your teacher (2:04); that is, assuming we know what we are trying to find out. Long Desk's reply is that, when people are not ready for an idea, they may reject it out of hand or they may embrace it without understanding it. I fear I have fallen into the latter category. That said, I am disinclined to conjecture about Long Desk's crazy words except to note that, were one to travel alongside the sun, it would never set.

[3] Li Ji was a member of the non-Chinese Rong people living to the north and west of China, hence a “barbarian.” She was traded in a hostage-swap to Duke Xian of Jin (r. 676651 B.C.). At first, still looking at it from the point of view of a country girl away from home, the story seemed to her like a tragedy. Later, having redefined herself as a queen, it was the best thing that ever happened to her. The significance of the events depends on how she understands her own identity. To Lady Li, the story has a happy ending and she is the hero. Zhuangzi’s readers, however, would have known that once she became the Duke’s concubine, she estranged him from his first wife and legitimate heirs, put her own son on the throne, and wreaked havoc in the kingdom, initiating the period of violence known as 戰國, the Warring States. For them, the story is a catastrophe and she is a monster. For us, the story is a puzzle because she is someone most of us have never heard of. Thus, not only for her in the story, but also for us reading it, the significance of the events for us depends on our self-understood identities.

How does this fit with what he was just saying in the previous paragraph? My tentative guess is that this self-questioning and subsequent confusion is the method for 'unifying things in complete simplicity.'

[4] The Chinese could be read as either "greater" or "greatest awakening." Many commentators have read it the latter way, as referring to an ultimate enlightenment that will finally put to rest the question of whether we are dreaming. As attractive as that reading might be, I find it incompatible with the logic of the argument since, even if such a state existed, how could we ever know if we had reached it? "Greater" leaves open the less satisfying but more realistic reading that we keep thinking that 'now we finally understand!' without ever being sure that we do.

"What we encounter every morning and evening" could mean that the ten-thousand years will pass like a single day--"in the blink of an eye"--or it could mean that the certainty of the millennial sage is indistinguishable from the certainty you and I feel on a daily basis.

[5] It may be worth comparing "heavenly relativity" to Royal Relativity" in the previous section. Are they the same or contrasts? As in 2:11, it is worth paying close attention to the argument here despite the comedy. Zhuangzi carefully rules out two possibilities that people normally think of as alternatives: saying either that everyone is right or that no one is. Though the original disputants disagreed about who was right, they agreed that one was right and the other wrong, so introducing these new positions now only makes it worse, not better. The connection to the preceding discussion is loose. It appears to be therapeutic argument designed not to prove that there is no right answer but to provoke despair at the possibility of finding it, thus 'unifying things in complete simplicity' by default. 

[a] The sentences in this last paragraph are clearly out of order in the traditional text, with "What do I mean by 'harmonize them by means of heaven’s relativity'?" coming before the reference to heaven's relativity. I follow Graham's rearrangement (Roth 16, Graham 60).